Hi Mike, I wanted to ask you something in view of the immortality of the soul doctrine and the rapture theory. I have found and read many papers that answered all my questions on your site but I need help with these verses. I read your writings on the elders in Rev 4 but the only question I had is the elders as well as the fellow brother in chapter 19 & 22 seem to be there before the last trump Paul speaks of in 1Co 15.
 Your Brother in Christ, M____

Hi M____,
Thanks for your question. I am very pleased that you have been granted by God to see through the lies about the immortality of the soul and the secret rapture.

You ask:
“I read your writings on the elders in Rev 4 but the only question I had is the elders as well as the fellow brother in chapter 19 & 22  seem to be there before the last trump Paul speaks of in 1Co 15?”

I can see from this e- mail that you are still struggling with understanding a couple of Biblical principles which, when you are given the ability to remember and apply, will always help to answer this and any other question you may have.
Those two principles are:

 1) God speaks of “those things that are not as though they were.”

Rom 4:17  (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, [ even] God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 

2) Every word of God is always is, was and will be.

Rev 1:4  John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace [ be] unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Christ is “the Word.” What applies to Christ applies to His Word. Anyone who comes to our weekly Bible studies or reads iswasandwillbe. com, knows just how much I emphasize those two principles. I feel that I cannot overly stress the importance of being aware of that character of the words of God. Thus the name of this site, iswasandwillbe. com. No one will ever come to “know God and Jesus Christ who He has sent” without coming to understand that Christ and His words “are, were and will be,” and as such “will never pass away.”

Mat 24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Joh 17:3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Christ tells us is that “ this generation will not pass away till all these things be fulfilled.” What does the phrase “all these things” mean?  What does this phrase include?  It includes all the events Christ has been talking about in the preceding verses in answer to his disciples asking Him:

Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world [ Greek – ‘aion’ – age]?

… and here is one of those preceding verses which Christ uttered in answer to the timing of the end of the age:

Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the worl d for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

If I were to approach Mat 24 in the way you are posing this question about “the four beasts around God’s throne, the 24 elders and the fellow laborer”, I would be asking ‘How can Christ say that the end of the age came in that generation? After all it is quite obvious that we are all still here?’
I do not attempt to make anyone see anything, but those whose eyes have been opened to know that all of God’s Word takes place primarily within each believer and only secondarily in the outward affairs of mankind, will clearly understand that “This generation” has a much broader application than merely the generation in which Christ lived in a body of flesh and blood. “This generation” instead refers to the generation reading and understanding Christ’s parables in every year since the death and resurrection of Christ.
You say the four beasts, the 24 elders and the fellow laborer are all there before the 7th trump. Well, I would hope so, because the four beasts, the four and twenty elders and the fellow laborer, are all types of God’s elect who are even now seated with Christ on that throne around which the twenty four elders, the four beasts, are found.

Eph 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly [ places] in Christ Jesus:

The word ‘places’ is in brackets because it is not in the original Greek manuscripts. The Greek simply says we are seated with Christ in the heavens, and that is what John is telling us here in Rev 5, where the saints are symbolized as being in and around God’s throne as “four beasts and four and twenty elders.

Rev 5:6  And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7  And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Rev 5:8  And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [ and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

It is both the four beasts and the four and twenty elders who claim to be God’s “redeemed out of every nation,” and who will “reign on the earth.”

For ten years I belonged to a church which taught its members that if we could just support the church until the church was able to teach its version of the Gospel of the kingdom of God to every nation on the earth, then Christ would come.  Such dispensational teaching makes Christ a liar.  Christ said ” all these things will be fulfilled in this generation.” So “the gospel of the kingdom” and “the end” had to come in ” this generation” or else Christ is lying.

But, of course, Christ is not lying.  The truth is that Mat 24, like every word Christ spoke is a parable:

Mat 13:34  All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

I think you already realize that according to Christ all his parables were spoken for the express purpose of keeping the multitudes from understanding “the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.” Christ said, “To them it is not given to understand the mysteries of the kingdom of God… therefore I speak to the multitudes who come to me in parables.” Just in case you are not aware of this fact, here are the verses which make this clear:

Mat 13:10  And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12  For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
  Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.  

So everything Christ is saying is related to “the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.”  “The mysteries of the kingdom of heaven” is just another way of saying “the revelation of Jesus Christ,” because both take place within us.

Luk 17:20  And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21  Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

There are two things we are specifically told are “within” or “in” us. One is ‘the kingdom of God,’ and the other is “Christ in you, the hope of glory.” This is “the mystery of the kingdom of heaven… which has been hidden from generations and from ages.”

Col 1:26  Even the mystery [ of the kingdom of heaven] which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27  To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Col 1:28  Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Col 1:29  Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

It is in the Revelation of Jesus Christ that this ‘is, was and will be’ character of Christ and his Words is so heavily emphasized.

You say:

“I read your writings on the elders in Rev 4 but the only question I had is the elders as well as the fellow brother in chapter 19 & 22  seem to be there before the last trump Paul speaks of in 1Co 15.”

What sense would it make for God’s elect to be missing before the last trump? We are not God’s elect at a certain point in our walk; we were God elect “before the world began.” God knows who are His elect even as they are “breathing out slaughter” against his elect. Remember the principle of “speaking of things that are not as though they were:

2Ti 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called [ us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Act 9:1  And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
Rom 4:17  (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, [ even] God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

You have forgotten that this is not a history book, but a book of prophecy. Here is the Biblical definition of prophecy:

1Co 14:3  But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

So we are being edified, exhorted and comforted about how we are to lead our lives in this book of prophecy. This is not, as your question suggests, a book which concerns itself with a certain order of historical events leading up to a climax on the world scene. It is rather, a book which in which we are to see ourselves as John’s “fellow servants” in Christ looking behind us to see the voice which is showing us how Christ is, was, and will be, being revealed within us as we “live by every word of God… and keep the things that are written therein… till the end.”

Rev 1:10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

‘Look behind us to see the voice that is speaking to us.’  Why do we “look behind us?” The answer is that we see nothing in its finished form until it is finished within us. We understand nothing in truth until we have lived it. So we are plainly told:

Mat 4:4  But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

… and that is why this book begins and ends with these words:

Rev 1:3  Blessed [ is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Rev 22:7  Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

“I come quickly… keep the sayings of the prophecy of this book… keep the things written therein, for the time is at hand.” To all of this Peter also agreed:

1Pe 4:7  But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

“All things” certainly include all of the seven trumpets, which must be heard within us before we will be found worthy to be “redeemed for all nations and reign on the earth.” So it should be obvious that “this generation” is the generation which is reading this prophecy, and it should also be obvious that the four beasts, the four and twenty elders, and the fellow servant, are all be spoken of as having overcome and being seated with Christ in the heavens, “as though they were.” That is the very character of Christ and His “is, was, and will be” words.
For example, just look at how Christ speaks to His Father of His disciples, just before they all forsake him and swear that they never knew Him:

Joh 17:6  I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

So when you say…

“… the elders as well as the fellow brother in chapter 19 & 22  seem to be there before the last trump Paul speaks of in 1Co 15.”

Just realize that God sees and speaks of the end and all of the seals, trumpets and plagues that are needed to get us all to that end, as if it were all already done. The significance of the number seven in scripture is not to lay out a certain order, but to tell us that we must live by the complete word of God, and not leave out any part.

Mat 4:4  But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Luk 4:4  And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

One thing which the natural man cannot receive is the truth that if Christ is, was and will be, then so too, His words and thoughts are, were and will be. And that includes the beasts in the midst of the throne, and the 24 elders around the throne.
That is the very reason I have given my web page the name iswasandwillbe. com. Every word that proceeds out of God’s mouth is part of “the revelation of Jesus Christ.” The revelation of Jesus Christ actually begins in Gen 1:1 and ends at Rev 22 verse 21.
So when you read that the 24 elders are “redeemed to God out of every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation,” we know that this is actually part of a prophecy of how Christ is being revealed to us, first and primarily, within those who will someday be ruling the outward “kingdom’s of this world.”

Rev 11:15  And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [ the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16  And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17  Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

“The seventh trump” is the “last trump.” Look what happens at the sounding of this trump:

Rev 11:11  And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them [ the dead bodies of the two witnesses, another type of God’s elect], and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12  And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13  And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

So there is both an inward and an outward fulfillment of every prophecy, but is it the purpose of this prophecy to tell us what we need to expect tomorrow, or is it intended to outline the order of events which are to befall us tomorrow? Absolutely not! We are plainly told that this is true:

Jas 4:14  Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

We all are the outward first, then we become the inward.

Rev 5:6  And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7  And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Rev 5:8  And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [ and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

So is there any order of events laid out in scripture” Yes, indeed, but it is in the vaguest of terms and intentionally so, so as to keep any man from “knowing the day or hour” or from knowing what tomorrow brings.
Scripture make it abundantly clear that “not that which is spiritual is first, but that which is natural, and afterward that which is spiritual.” Scripture makes it clear that the first Adam precedes the last Adam. Scripture makes it clear that “the man of sin will be revealed before he is destroyed by the brightness of Christ’s coming,” within us. All of this is what both Paul and Peter, as well as John, call “the revelation of Jesus Christ.”

Gal 1:12  For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [ it], but by the revelation of Jesus Chris t.
1Pe 1:13  Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ
Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [ it] by his angel unto his servant John:

It is the purpose of all three writers to “keep ready” and to give to God’s elect the understanding of how God is edifying, exhorting and comforting His elect. Not one of them is interested in “knowing the day or the hour, or what the morrow may bring.” All three, in all of their writings, are intent on feeding God’s elect and giving them their meat in due season.” That is our goal here at IWWB, nothing more and nothing less

Mat 24:44  Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24:45  Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mat 24:46  Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Mat 24:47  Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

Luk 12:42  And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom [ his] lord shall make ruler over his household, to give [ them their] portion of meat in due season?
Luk 12:43  Blessed [ is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Luk 12:44  Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

“Who is the faithful steward?” Is it those who have tomorrow’s news figured out? No, it is not. The faithful steward is intent on “giving them their portion of meat in due season.”
I hope this helps you to see that “God speaks of things that are not as though they were,” and that we all “must live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God,” and that we must all “keep the things which are written therein.” I also hope that you now can see that the four beasts and the four and twenty elders, are the fellow servants, and of necessity must always be there keeping “the things that are written therein, for the time is at hand” in every generation which reads and understands “the sayings of the prophecy of this book.”

Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Rev 22:7  Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

We die daily and overcome and keep subdued our carnal minds daily “unto the end.”

1Co 15:31  I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Mat 10:22  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Your brother in Christ,
Mike