Is, Was and Will Be – The Unknown Character of Christ and His Word

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Did Christ Pre_Exist?

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Hi R____,

I am disappointed that you did not see the point that Paul makes in Rom 1:20 and 1Co 11.

This is the only way we will understand this subject. “The invisible things of the godhead are understood by the things that are made. Which ‘Things that are made?”

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the [ God] head of Christ is God.
1Co 11:8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.

Neither you nor I believe otherwise. We all know and understand that God the Father is God. That is not the question. Christ Himself said, “My Father is greater than I am.” The question is, did Christ pre- exist? Was he created and when was he created?

I gave to you Rev 3:14:

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Now my wife and I, according to the scriptures are “one flesh.” According to the scripture, the man was created first and the woman was taken out of the man. but they are still called “one.”

Gen 1:2 And God said, Let us make man [ male and female] in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Eve came “out of Adam,” and yet they are called “one flesh,”

Thus “by the things that are made,” we understand that the “Word came out from God,” and yet they (“let US”) are called “one God.” That is what Rom 1:20 and 1Co 11 teach.

You didn’t even bother to comment on that point other than to say “I don’t get it.” Well, I have no illusions of being able to open blinded eyes.

Now, how do we explain that, because we all know, even trinitarians, that Jesus is not the Father. BUT that is what you are saying. IF you will face it.

Eze 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

So what do the scriptures teach about when Christ came into being? Was he really “the beginning of the creation of God?” Was he really the “reshyth,” the “firstfruit,” through which God created all else as Colossians one declares? Do we understand his divinity by “the things that are made?”

But is that what Peter really meant? Did Peter really believe that it was the Spirit of Christ that did and said all of those things back there in the old Testament? Or was it just “in God’s foreknowledge?” Did Christ really exist as a spirit through which God accomplished his creation just as Pharaoh accomplished the saving of Egypt through Joseph? Does God use others or does He do everything Himself? I know that it is entirely possible, with this ‘foreknowledge only’ doctrine, to dismiss a scripture that says that Christ’s spirit accomplished all of this in the Old Testament prophets. That scripture just happens to be in the writing of the very apostle to which you refer to show me that Christ did not pre- exist.

Hi R____,

I’m sorry, but I don’t think we are getting anywhere. I do concur that it is very important to know how Christ relates to His Father, but you just put every scripture I give you, no matter how clearly stated it is, into “God’s foreknowledge.” I have no doubt that you suppose that I am just thinking like I have been conditioned to think, but I know of very few indeed who see that Christ was created and then was used by his Father, who is also His husband, to create all that was made. It was all done “in the reshiyth.” It was all done in and through Christ. The whole point of 1Co 11 is to show us that the woman is to the man what Christ is to God.

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

I have gone to great lengths to point this out. I have used Rom 1:20 which makes the purpose for this analogy in 1Co 11 clear, and your response is:

It is this idol that caused you to miss those words “the head of Christ is God [ just like the head of the woman is the man].”

“The invisible things are understood by the things [ fleshly marriage] that are made”. Neither I nor the Bible have ever asserted that God and Christ are “one flesh.’ You are grasping at straws. ‘One flesh,’ in marriage is the “thing that is made,” which reveals God’s spiritual, invisible relationship to Christ and how Christ was used to bring all things; The created spirit world, like Satan, and the physical world, like a married couple in the garden of Eden, into existence.

The physical is only a spiritual type. That is what is meant when Paul says” “The Holy Ghost teaches comparing spiritual things with spiritual.”

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

That is what you are missing and will continue to miss so long as you fail to see from whence and from where Christ came.

Read How To Rightly Divide The Word Using A Principle Only The Apostles Understood. In all honesty, your questions and statements in our exchanges reveal that you don’t understand that principle, so clearly demonstrated by all the writers of the New Testament when ever they quoted the Old Testament. Read that paper. It will give you a spiritual insight into God’s Word, which both you and this writer you are reading could use. Christ’s spirit was with the Old Testament writers. Christ is the Word of God. “My Words will never pass away.”

Here is our exchange that demonstrates your inability to “compare spiritual with spiritual.” Consequently you will not understand the “hidden things of the spirit.”

I meant nothing of the sort. You and I agree that God the Father is greater than Christ (“My father is greater than I”) and that the Father created Christ (Rev 3:14). Yet Christ is called by His Father “The mighty God [ and] the everlasting Father,” meaning that Christ is a God and a Father to us (“Who shall declare His generation?”). You believe that Christ is the Son of God, correct. I am a man, therefore my son is a son of man and thus a man. God is God, therefore, Christ is a Son of God and thus a god. It is in this context that I say (and scripture says) that Christ is both our God and Father: because He is the Son of the God and Father.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

In the book of Revelation Christ is even called “the Almighty.”

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Al mighty.
Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth [ this is not a statement dealing with flesh], and was dead [ this does refer to flesh]; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Christ was not “made to be sin” by being nailed to the cross. Rather He was “made to be sin” by being “shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin.”

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Just like all of us, Christ was born into a “body of death.”

That is how important this subject is. You will never see what Paul meant when he called this flesh “the body of this death,” as long as you hang on to the belief that Christ emptied Himself of nothing, because He existed only in God’s foreknowledge.”

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

This doctrine you are clinging to puts Christ in no better position than Abraham. According to this doctrine, Abraham or you or I could also say ‘before Abraham was I am,’ simply because we were all in God’s ‘foreknowledge.’

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,

This doctrine is a demeaning to the “Preeminence of Christ in all things.”

Col 1:17 And he is before all things [ in heaven and in earth- past and present- Read Where and What Is Heaven?], and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning The Father has no beginning], the firstborn from the dead; that in all things [ even the spirit world- not just being the firstborn form the dead] he might have the preeminence.

According to this doctrine to which you are clinging, Satan existed before Christ. According to this doctrine Satan does not “consist in him”, but consisted long before Christ ever was.

There is a principle revealed to us by the Father Himself. It is a principle that will help us to discern spirits. The father “glorified His Son.”

Joh 11:4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

See the ‘oneness’ in that statement? Now look at this verse:

Joh 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.
Joh 13:32 If God be glorified in him [ Christ], God shall also glorify him [ Christ] in himself, and shall straightway glorify him [ Christ].

It was God’s decision to “head up all things in Him.” ‘All things,’ means “all things,” past and present. The principle revealed here is that any thing that is scripturally stated so that “the Son Of God might be glorified thereby,” is very likely the Truth.” Anything, on the other hand that demeans Christ, and robs Him of the “glory that I had with you before the world was,” neither edifies us or Christ. Christ is “the everlasting Father.” Christ is both “the mighty God,” and Christ is “The Almighty.” These are all titles beneath the throne of God, yet over all things. We would all do well to accept this as the mind of the Father in this matter.

I’m sorry if I haven’t answered every question you asked. I simply don’t think it would make any difference. At this point you cannot receive the fact that Christ is called God, Father, the Mighty God, the Almighty, etc. You keep repeating that “I think Christ is God,” in the sense that he was not created, even after I showed you where He, Christ, claims to be the beginning of the creation of God.” I have no problem with Christ being “the beginning of the creation of God” as far as he relates to us for His father. And neither do I have any problem with the fact that at the same time He, Christ, retains all of the above titles. You do not like to repeat the scriptural phrase that Christ is the “Mighty God, ” nor “the Everlasting Father,” nor “the Almighty.” But He is, and from the Father’s point of view, it is demeaning to argue otherwise.

I hope all these scriptures have been of some help. You keep referring to “all the other scriptures, that say that God is one.” I would hope that you could shake free from the influence of this man you are reading and allow Isa. 9:6 and Rev 1:4-18. to put a Biblical perspective on what ‘one God,’ means. It means

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Christ truly is our ‘father,’ for it was through Him that mankind and all spirit beings were created, and it will be through Him also that mankind will be “Made again as seems fit to the Potter to make it [ conformed to the image of Christ – Jer 18:4].” This is all true because the Father has determined “that in all things he Christ, our Father] might have the preeminence.“

I know that we have both spent a lot of time on this topic. I have no doubt that you are just as sincere as I am. You seem to think that I have never considered this before, but I have been reading web pages and articles expounding this heresy for several years. I have considered it with an open mind and have found it to be unfounded in the overall scope of God’s Word.

I will gladly read anything you yet have to say, but I see no progress being made thus far.

Mike

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