Hello,

I just read the following statement in one of your FAQ from a reader:
“So, Christ is in the Father, and visa- versa, and we are in Christ, and Christ is in us, and in the end all will be in the Father, even Christ. Then the Father will be all in all, and we will all be one with, or within, the Father, and the Father’s plan from the beginning will be complete. As we were in the beginning a part of God, we will be again.”
This ‘theme’ seems to be very prevalent in many different forums lately, and I am confused about it. Does this mean that we ‘existed’ perhaps ‘consciously’ prior to our physical birth, or does it mean that when we are all ‘at one’ with God after the ‘ages’, that we will not ‘exist’ as ‘individual beings’? This thinking seems very confusing to me, and I haven’t seen anyone expound on this subject in any meaningful way. It seems like there would be no point to this individual life if we will no longer be individuals after the ages. Please direct me to any articles on your site addressing this subject that I may have missed.
Thanks so much,

L____

Hi L____,

No one writing for this site believes that we were spirits before we were “vessels of clay, marred in the Potter’s hand”.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Scripture tells us the spiritual is NOT first.

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Those are very clears words, and they are in complete accord with Christ’s admonition of Job.

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
Job 38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Obviously Job was not there to declare where he was at that time, and Job agreed that he had overstepped his bounds in reproving his very Creator.

Job 40:1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
Job 40:3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
Job 40:4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
Job 40:5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.

Those who teach that just because God knew of us before we existed, that therefore we were there when Christ “laid the foundations of the earth” are guilty of “reproving God”, who tells us “Not that which is spiritual was first, but that which is natural, and afterward that which is spiritual”. Those folks would have Job answering a third time and saying ‘Why, Lord, I was right there as a spirit witnessing the whole procedure’.
Job was not there, but there was a spirit world which is symbolized by the fowls which fly in the heavens. That spiritual heavenly realm was created on the fifth day, just before Christ created the Adamic world, along with all the other beasts of the earth.

Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [ it was] good.
Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
Gen 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

Just as Adam is a figure of Christ, those fowl are also a figure of the spirit world.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Of course there are also clean birds which are the figures of clean spirits which are “the sons of God who shouted for joy”, when the foundation of the earth were laid, but Job, in Adam, certainly was not first a spirit.

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

I hope these verses help you to see the Truth of scripture on this subject. We did not exist first as spirits, and we were not there when Christ laid the foundations of the earth”. Any doctrine which denies “that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural, and afterward that which is spiritual” is a “doctrine of demons”.
There is no scriptural basis for such a false doctrine. That is the very concept with which the serpent beguiled Eve, saying “You shall not surely die…” ; ‘you are an eternal spirit having an earthy experience’, when the truth is that we are an earthy beast coming to a spiritual experience.
Here Isa 1Co 15:46 along with the next few verses.

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

“We shall bear”, not ‘we have borne’.
As to ceasing to exist as individuals, the reader to whom you referred was making an assumption not based on scripture. The scripture says:

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

It does not say, as the letter writer previously said, “… we will all be one with, or within, the Father.” God will be ALL (the first all – complete, total, no fleshly lusts, etc. in existence any more) in ALL (the second all – every human being who has ever lived). God is love and and to have total love, we will be totally godly as He will be ALL in every one of us. Christ has already ascended to the Father and is at His right hand. He is still a separate entity even though They share the same mind.

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [ are].
Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [ art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Yes, we are to be ‘one in Him’, but as Christ is, totally subjected to the Father, but a unique being. Hope this helps clear up the confusion.
Your brother in Christ,
Mike