Hi Mike,

May I ask you a question? I have been listening to your talks on audio and have been getting a lot out of them. I have been getting a better grasp of the chastening aspect of grace, and trying to understand the wrath of God on the unrighteousness of men and in particular on the elect as experienced by King David and Job. However I don’t understand where Romans 8:1-3 fits in.

‘Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.’ Assuming I am daily walking in God’s Spirit, desiring to walk in uprightness, daily setting my mind on what pleases the Spirit (Rom 8:5b), knowing that being the recipient of Grace that I have an obligation not to walk in the flesh (Rom 8:12), is there ‘now no condemnation’ for me, or am I still liable to God’s wrath?

Or am I totally confused!

Thank you

M

Hi M____,

It is always good to hear from you. Thank you for your question. It gives me the opportunity to clarify the difference in ‘abiding in Christ’ and ‘abiding in God’s wrath.’

Look at these two sections of God’s Word. The first verses here in John 15 concern “abiding in Christ”.

Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

The second set of scriptures deal with abiding in God’s wrath:

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Joh 3:30 He must increase, but I [must] decrease.
Joh 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
Joh 3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
Joh 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [unto him].
Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

“He must increase, but I must decrease” is a lifelong process. As Christ increases in us, we need less and less of “the wrath of God… revealed from heaven against all ungodliness.” It is entirely possible to have “the wrath of God abiding on you” and still at times have a shallow repentance and tell David, as King Saul did, “You are more righteous than I.” Likewise one can “abide in Christ” and still leave home occasionally, and commit a sin which will bring down the wrath God “on all unrighteousness.”

Those who are “abiding in Christ” will immediately repent and beg God for forgiveness and never again kill a man and take his wife. Those on whom “the wrath of God abides” will experience a very short and shallow repentance, go back home and begin plotting their next attempt to destroy God’s elect.

Even King David, after the rebellion of Absolom was put down, lived out the rest of his reign in relative peace. “He must increase and I must decrease… we all… in times past… were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.” As we decrease, “the wrath of God abides on us” less and less. As we “abide in him” He increases and “the wrath of God abides on us” less and less.

Nevertheless, here is the Truth that will never change:

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap [“specially of those that believe”].

Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened [us] after their own pleasure; but he for [our] profit, that [we] might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

“Lest ye be weary and faint in your minds” from what? We all become weary of God’s chastening and scourging grace, and we all forget the exhortation that whom the Lord loves He chastens and scourges every son He receives. How does this chapter end?

Heb 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
Heb 12:27 And this [word], Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Heb 12:29 For our God [is] a consuming fire.

God starts with us as “carnal, earthy babes in Christ.” This is where God shakes our earth as described in the first three chapters of 1 Corinthians.

1Co 1:1 Paul, called [to be] an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes [our] brother,
1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

We are called and sanctified and even come behind in no gift:

1Co 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
1Co 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Yet what are we told is the spiritual condition of such “sanctified” Christians?

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

We are all to begin with “by nature children of disobedience… vessels of wrath fitted for destruction” and we are told so:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred [Hebrew: shachath] in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make [it].

That Hebrew word translated ‘marred’ in this verse is the word translated destroyed in this verse:

Gen 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy [Hebrew: shachath] them with the earth.

Out of one hundred-sixty eight entries for this word, it is translated ‘marred’ only three times. Most all the rest of the other 165 entries are some form of destroy, destruction or corruption. The most common translation by far is the word ‘destroy.’

We are all “destroyed with the earth” before we can be “the eighth which is of the seven, and go into perdition.”

Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Only then does “the hand of the Potter make us again.” It is only after our total destruction and “perdition” that we can be “made again a new vessel as seems good to the Potter to make it.”

Until we have “kept the sayings of the prophecy of this book” we will never be able, with the apostle John, to “look behind us to see the voice which speaks with us… to show us things which must shortly be done.”

Now if I understand your question it is, “Is it possible to abide in Christ and yet suffer God’s wrath on our sin?” The answer to that question is given us in this very parable where we see that a branch can indeed abide in Christ and at the same time be in need of being purged from time to time and having what is purged cast into the fire to be burned.

Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

So it should be clear that while we are “abiding in Christ” we are still in need of ‘purging’ or pruning from time to time, as the stories of Job and King David and the apostle Peter and Paul’s ‘thorn in the flesh’, etc. demonstrate. Job typifies God’s elect, and yet God’s wrath was shown against Job’s unrighteous act of making himself righteous so he could condemn God:

Job 40:1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct [him]? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
Job 40:3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
Job 40:4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
Job 40:5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.
Job 40:6 Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 40:7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

King David typifies God’s elect as “a man after God’s own heart.” Yet while typifying God’s elect, God’s wrath was poured out on King David’s sins of murder and adultery just as they will ever be on our unrighteousness:

2Sa 12:10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.

1Sa 13:13 And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever.
1Sa 13:14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him [to be] captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the LORD commanded thee.

King Saul never murdered one of his own soldiers, and King Saul never took that soldier’s wife. So why was King David called a “man after God’s own heart” and King Saul was not? The answer is that whenever Samuel corrected King Saul for his disobedience, King Saul always blamed the people, and at one time his own son, rather that admit to his own foolishness. King Saul is not typifying someone we are not ourselves at one point in our walk.

We are all King Sauls before we become King Davids. We must live by every word of God, and we must keep the sayings of the prophecy of this book. Eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was predestined to be accomplished in us all before we could go through that fiery sword and be destroyed and be made again and eat of the tree of life.

King Saul never once did as King David did when the prophet Nathan, pointed his finger in King David’s face and said, “Thou are the rich man with many sheep who has taken away the only sheep of your poor neighbor.” When the scriptures tell us that “the first man is of the earth, earthy” it is talking about King Saul in us. When it tells us that the last Adam is the Lord from heaven” it is talking about King David typifying Christ in us.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

However, King David was still in need of purging, and just like the apostle Paul’s “thorn in the flesh” King David’s need for humility was constant, and he was told “the sword will never depart from thy house.” So it is possible for God’s elect to have God’s wrath poured out on our unrighteousness as it is occasionally needed and yet not be “abiding in God’s wrath.”

No one wants to admit that he must be the first Adam before he can be the last Adam, but it must nevertheless be so. That is what Christ meant when He told us that we must live by every word of God and keep the saying of the prophecy of this book:

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings [are] faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed [is] he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

There it is, right at the beginning and at the end of the book of Revelation. It has been there for two thousand years, and no one seems to be able to see that opening and closing admonition to “keep the sayings of the prophecy of this book.” The reason is that no one can see how we are to “live by every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God.” No one can see how we can be both King Saul and King David. Yet is so very clear:

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.

We must all bear both Adams:

1Co 15:48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Yes, even if we are God’s very elect, we must first bear the image of the earthy. We must be the first Adam, and all that is in him, before we can bear the image of the heavenly and become the second Adam and all that is in Him.

Christ “did not come to condemn the world:”

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn [Greek: krino, condemn] the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

However, He did come to “judge the world through His Words:”

Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment [Greek: krima, judgment] I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Joh 9:40 And [some] of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge Krino] him in the last day.

How can Christ say in one breath that He did not come to krino the world but that His word would krino this world? The answer is that Christ is not trying at this time to save the world. Christ is at this time calling many but saving few. Nevertheless, “in the last day”, through the mercy of the few who are being chosen today, Christ will judge this world. He is doing so now among those few whom He has chosen:

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God : and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Let’s consider a couple of other scriptures to understand what is the mind of God in answer to your question. Let’s look again at John 3:17 and the verses which follow:

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Now is there anywhere in those verses that tells us that there will never be a time when God’s elect will not be in need of scourging and chastening? Is there anything in those verses that disagrees with this verse of God’s Word:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

These words are the light of God’s Word. They are addressed to those who “hold the truth…” Yet, as we always tend to do, we apply these words to that terrible sinner ‘out there’ somewhere. Consequently we become like King David. We think that now that we are “kings and priests” verses like this are for the sins of others, like King Saul, but not for our sins.

Such thoughts cannot distinguish between “abiding in Christ” and still being in need, from time to time, of “purging” and “scourging” a son who is being received. Such were Job, King David, the apostle Paul and the apostle Peter.

On the other hand are those who are “abiding in God’s wrath” as unrepentant “vessels of wrath fitted for destruction.” Such were Cain, Esau, King Saul, and the chief priests and elders who insisted upon the crucifixion of Christ. So too, were we all at our appointed time. We are all, at our appointed time, “children of wrath”

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

“We were all children of wrath by nature, even as others” who are still children of wrath. But that was “in times past” for us.

If there is anything that God’s Word makes clear, it is that we are never to take our election for granted. You and I must never say, “I am God’s elect, and therefore I do not need to concern myself with the struggles of the flesh. Christ died for my sins, and I have therefore overcome the flesh and will never again need to worry with struggling against the pulls of the flesh or suffering the wrath of God on my ungodliness, in this life.” To think like that is to make void Christ’s warning to us all about the man whose fields brought forth plentifully:

Luk 12:16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
Luk 12:17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
Luk 12:18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
Luk 12:19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, [and] be merry.
Luk 12:20 But God said unto him, [Thou] fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
Luk 12:21 So [is] he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

So how do we become “rich toward God?” If there is any meaning at all to the parable of the ten virgins, the parable of the rich man whose house was broken into, the parable of the unjust judge and the importunate widow, etc. it is:

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.

1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

You ask:

Assuming I am daily walking in God’s Spirit, desiring to walk in uprightness, daily setting my mind on what pleases the Spirit (Rom 8:5b), knowing that being the recipient of Grace that I have an obligation not to walk in the flesh (Rom 8:12), is there ‘now no condemnation’ for me or am I still liable to God’s wrath?”

The answer is that “grace chastens. The answer is that “there is no condemnation to those who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit.” I hope that this exchange has helped you to see that walking after the spirit is never to be taken as something that does not require constant vigilance. If that were not the case, then none of the admonitions of scripture have any application to, and therefore are not for, God’s elect. However, the Truth of God’s Word is the exact opposite. All of God’s Word with all of its admonitions are only for “those with eyes to see and ears to hear.”

We are being prepared to rule this world. This is not a calling for the faint of heart. It is not intended to ever in this life become a bed of roses.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

I hope you find all of this to be confirming to your soul. Remember, you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you. You will not be tempted above what you can bear, and He that has begun a good work in you will finish it.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

Sincerely in Christ,
Mike