Here are some thoughts on my study of the word ” wrath” ;

G3709
ὀργή
orgē
or-gay’

From G3713; properly desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), that is, (by analogy) violent passion (ire, or [justifiable] abhorrence); by implication punishment: – anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.

Total KJV occurrences: 36

First thing that jumped out at me is the Greek wording for the word wrath and its spelling  “orgē”. The second thing I noticed was the way it is pronounced in sounding out the word “or-gay’ “. So the English word for the greek word “orge” “or-gay” is wrath. When the flesh is ever involved in either of these two physical sins, it is because OF GOD’S WRATH.  The “orge” (“or-gay”) is not why God BRINGS WRATH upon us.  The acts themselves are the manifestation or REVEALING of the wrath that God has put on us, but due to the false free-will doctrine, the cart was put before the horse.  We now claim our sin as ours. Again, the sins of our flesh are the revealing FROM GOD that His wrath abides on us.  Read the following verses with that thought in mind. The UN-godliness and UN-righteousness of man is why the wrath of God is being revealed in the sins of the flesh. The unrighteousness and ungodliness is thinking you have good works that you do, separate and independent from God, by your own freewill, that God must accept. Thinking that you have works which are accepted or rejected by God in your flesh is SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS. This IS the UN-righteousness and UN-godliness of which the verses are speaking and is the reason He gives us over to the sins of the flesh; to reveal to us that we are worshipping the creation and not the Creator.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is REVEALED from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

The ungodliness and unrighteousness of men is worshipping and thinking you have anything to offer Him in and of yourself. Thinking God will receive your works as though you done them FOR HIM and not BY HIM, is UN-righteousness and UN-godliness.

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has shewed it to them.

Rom 1:26 FOR THIS CAUSE God gave them up to vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

A brother gave me this verse this morning when we were studying these things which correspond to what is being said.

Joh 3:36 He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: (having aionian life is seeing that all that I am or all that I will ever be is from God, through God and for God – Col 1:15-17), and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

(The wrath of God will be revealed by the sins of our flesh, PROVING we are worshipping the creature more than the Creator).

YbiTC, Dennis

Amen! You are exactly right. Christ plainly said: “Without me you can do nothing”, but we make those words to say ‘Without me you can do nothing good’. The Truth is that we cannot even sin without Christ hardening our hearts and making us to err from His ways:

Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants’ sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

Far be it from me to turn the Lord’s grace and the knowledge of His sovereignty into lasciviousness, but it is still a great load off my shoulders to know that our Lord is in charge of both all good and all evil, and that He really does have and is wielding “all power in heaven and in the earth:

Dan 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

If Christ has been granted “all power… in heaven and in earth”, then what is He doing with that power? For the most part He is “making [mankind to err from His ways, and hardening [their] hearts from [His] fear. It is given to only a few at this time to fear God and keep His commandments.

YbitC,

Mike

God created the sin in the city; He created good and evil in man. Since God brooded over the face of the deep and devised the entire creation and then spoke the word and it was created in an instant; I have a tough time believing that he gets angry as we know anger.

We feel like He knew He was going to get wildly angry the moment he made a sinning machine – this sinning machine – the instant it was created was a forboding trigger. “I’m going to get angry; it’s coming, it’s coming – now I’m angry!” Almost like he’s eternally angry since flesh is sin, and while we are alive, he’s angry; striding around with the face of an Ayatollah.

From G3713; properly desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), that is, (by analogy) violent passion (ire, or [justifiable] abhorrence); by implication punishment: – anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.

That translation makes much more sense in that His wrath is a deep passionate and anguished desire for the end of man’s flesh – though a necessary evil vehicle – to reach the finished product.

Eph 4:26 Be angry, and do not sin. Do not let the sun go down upon your wrath,
Eph 4:27 neither give place to the Devil.

God’s anger is not sin because his wrath is a deep passionate desire for the sons of men to come into the finished state of perfection. I guess the sun never goes down on his deep passionate desire since he is always in the light of himself and the Son for the duration of man’s flesh. So he’s not going to let the sun go down on His wrath until His work in man is done. “Neither give place for the Devil” would be unrighteous anger, the type that is not a deep passionate desire.

I want the truth, my Saints – gimme the truth; nothing short of the love of the truth.

Grant

Thank you, Dennis and Grant,

You are both so very right when you point out that God is working the good and the evil in this world “after the counsel of His own will”.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

For that very reason, we know God is not wringing His hands when men do evil things and err in a manner He “made [them] to err”, and we know His repentance is not the same as the repentance of a man:

Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants’ sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

1Sa 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

God’s ‘wrath’ is not an unanticipated, frustrated reaction to the sins of mankind which He makes them to perform:

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Therefore we ought not have to think too long to know that God already knew, when He told Moses to get back and let Him destroy the whole nation of Israel, exactly what Moses would say, and He already knew He was not going to destroy Israel.

Exo 32:7 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:
Exo 32:8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
Exo 32:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
Exo 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
Exo 32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
Exo 32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
Exo 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Do any of us truly believe the Lord had not thought about what the Egyptians would think and say about Him if He destroyed Israel? Do we believe the Lord had to “repent of the evil which He thought to do unto His people”, in the way he tells us we must repent of our sins?

We are told that God repented of ever making man:

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Right after telling us this:

1Sa 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

We are also told in this same chapter:

1Sa 15:35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.

He repented of destroying so many in Jerusalem when David numbered the people:

2Sa 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.

He “repented” of the evil He had pronounced against Hezekiah:

Jer 26:19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him at all to death? did he not fear the LORD, and besought the LORD, and the LORD repented him of the evil which he had pronounced against them? Thus might we procure great evil against our souls.

And in Amos He repented of destroying Israel by grasshppers and by fire:

Amo 7:1 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me; and, behold, he formed grasshoppers in the beginning of the shooting up of the latter growth; and, lo, it was the latter growth after the king’s mowings.
Amo 7:2 And it came to pass, that when they had made an end of eating the grass of the land, then I said, O Lord GOD, forgive, I beseech thee: by whom shall Jacob arise? for he is small.
Amo 7:3 The LORD repented for this: It shall not be, saith the LORD.
Amo 7:4 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and, behold, the Lord GOD called to contend by fire, and it devoured the great deep, and did eat up a part.
Amo 7:5 Then said I, O Lord GOD, cease, I beseech thee: by whom shall Jacob arise? for he is small.
Amo 7:6 The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD.

If God had repented of making mankind as we repent, He would not have saved Noah and His family just to go back to a world filled with sin and violence.

In every other case He was repenting of the wrath He was about to pour out upon His own creatures. But God’s wrath and His repentance is not as the wrath or repentance of men whom He makes to err from his ways:

Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants’ sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

God’s wrath and His repentance are both essential parts of the plan He conceived “before the world began” to create a repentant spiritual new man who would appreciate the love, mercy and wisdom of a God who knew all along what was the best and only way to produce the new spiritual man He had in mind from “before the world began”:

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

God’s wrath and His rejoicing, like light and darkness, “are both alike to [Him]” because they both are working to the preordained end He has always had in view from “before the world began”.

Isa 62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

Psa 139:12 Even the darkness hideth not from thee, But the night shineth as the day: The darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

So to answer our two questions directly, No, God’s wrath is not the same as man’s wrath because:

Jas 1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

Whereas God’s wrath does work the righteousness of God.

No, God’s repentance is not like the repentance of man for the same reason… God is not a man, and when He repents His repentance is actually working out His will, which was determined ‘before the world began’.

1Sa 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

I hope this adds to this thread.

YbitC,

Mike

[Questions or comments can be directed to vinsmike @gmail.com]