I regret having to send these letters out. As you know, the announcement about the conference in Marshall, Michigan has been on my page for months. I also sent the announcement to Ray months ago, which he read, edited and posted on his site.

I have been teaching that the book of Revelation was a book to be experienced in its entirety for several years. Ray has never contested this until just before the conference when, as you will read, he sent me an ultimatum that I was not to teach this any longer. Having just been shown by Ray and dozens of others that I had indeed been wrong in saying, throughout the Revelation Commentary, that we came to perfection when we come out of ‘Tarsus,’

I was shaken at the prospect of maybe being mistaken again. Ray was very adamant that the whole approach to the book of Revelation was wrong and that we do not experience anything in this book which deals with God’s wrath. I had already publicly admitted to having been wrong about teaching that we are perfected in the flesh. I had told Ray that Rob and I would rewrite the commentary and go ponderously through each word and then let him read and critique it before we would post it. Ray insisted that Rob have nothing whatsoever to do with the rewriting. Now, I am going to quote Ray from our telephone conversation. Mind you these words were uttered by Ray Smith less than three weeks ago: “Mike, you and I are the only ones mature enough to decide what all of those symbols mean.” I took exception to that statement immediately and reminded Ray on the spot that God still has His 7000 who have not bowed the knee to Baal. Well, it has been down hill ever since that conversation, culminating in a hours-long conversation in which I listened to Ray telling me that God’s elect are not appointed to God’s wrath, as if I taught that God’s elect go through the seven last plagues after the end of this age. I asked him that if he felt this way, why had he waited until just before the conference to tell me so. His answer was to refer back to the mistake about ‘Tarsus’ of which both Rob Jones and I have publicly repented. Please note how Ray continues to refer to these references, of which I have repented, in the commentary as if I still intended to teach that we are perfected while still in the flesh. That teaching will not be in the revision. If Paul, late in his life, did not consider himself to be perfect, then Ray and so many of you are right, I had better not be considering myself perfect while in the flesh. I do not believe this, and it will not appear in the revision.

I have always taught that, just as it was God’s Holy Spirit that revealed to Peter that Christ was the son of God, so it is with all truth you or I or anyone else will overcome to see. All revelations of Truth come only by divine revelation. Teachers are always used, but until a Truth is witnessed in your own spirit by God’s Holy Spirit, you do not know that Truth. Once it is witnessed, no one will be able to take that truth away from you.

I need not tell you what parts of this book are for you. Here is what
Christ Himself says about this book:

Rev 1:3  Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep [all] those things which are written therein : for the time is at hand.

Rev 22:6  And he said unto me, These sayings [all of them] are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Rev 22:7  Behold, I come quickly: blessed [is] he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Rev 22:18  For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

I ask you what I ask everyone: What is your part in this book? If you proclaim that any part of the sayings of the prophecy of this book have no application in your life, then Christ will tell you:

Luk 19:22  (a) And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee,

I will not suffer God’s wrath in the lake of fire only because His wrath has already been experienced in my life. All of God’s wrath is for the benefit of its recipients. Joe Beeler shared a scripture with me which God gave him after a lengthy conversation with Ray, when he asked Ray to show him in scripture where what I taught in Michigan was not the truth. Here is what God gave to Joe concerning the connection between Chastening and wrath:

Psa 38:1 <A Psalm of David, to bring to remembrance.> O LORD, rebuke me not in thy wrath: neither chasten me in thy hot displeasure.

Even God’s wrath is displayed in love. Joe made a statement that I thought was profound enough to include in this introduction to this thread between Ray and me. Here is Joe’s revelation of the Truth about the Is, Was And Will Be nature of God’s Word:

The ‘Will Be’ part of God’s Word is just as much admonition and example for us as is the ‘Was’ part (the happenings of the Old Testament, 1Co 10:11).

There has come a time of sifting for many of us. May you all be given ears to hear the voice of the true shepherd and, as I emphasized during the Marshall conference, not the voice of either Ray Smith or of Mike Vinson.

God’s wrath is mentioned in the seals, trumpets and plagues. Look at where it is mentioned in relation to God’s first fruits, His elect 144,000:

Rev 14:1  And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:2  And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3  And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4  These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5  And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
Rev 14:6  And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7  Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Rev 14:8  And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev 14:9  And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints: here  are they that keep the commandments of God [the sayings of the prophecy of this book], and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:13  And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Rev 14:14  And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15  And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16  And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Rev 14:17  And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18  And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19  And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20  And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Is this all only a ‘will be’ “saying of the prophecy of this book?” Have you never experienced anything in this chapter? Is this part of the “sayings of the prophecy of this book” for someone else, with no application whatsoever for you?  Does the mention of ‘grapes’ mean that your chaff will not experience the same fire that purifies those in the lake of fire? Your answer to these questions will determine how many of the sayings of the prophecy of this book are “your part in those sayings.”

Prayerfully,
Mike

Note: Once you have read through the following material, you may want to compare what is being said to the following audio clips taken from the lecture “How Hard is Getting Saved?”.

Ray writes:

Mike:
After visiting your site regarding the upcoming Conference in Michigan, I see that you are planning to teach that the Elect will all have to go through the Seven Last Plagues. I have already told you that I believe this to be unscriptural. The elect assuredly DO NOT go through the Seven Last Plagues.  God, in fact, gives assurance, that if His people will “COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive NOT OF HER PLAGUES” (Rev 18:4).

The only way that you can put the Elect through the Seven Last Plagues, is to “add to” or “take away from” this plain Scripture stating that those who come OUT OF HER (the Elect) will NOT receive of her plagues.”For God has NOT appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ” (1Th 5:9).  The Seven Last Plagues fill up”the WRATH of the Lamb” (Rev 6:17), and the Elect are NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH.

What are the Elect appointed to?  They are appointed to “afflictions and tribulation,” (1Th 3:3-4), not the WRATH OF GOD (1Th 5:9).  What part of the word “not” do you not understand?

In your Revelation Commentary (Rev. 6:9-11), you state that “their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed AS THEY were should be fulfilled” has reference to those in verse 15 of whom it is stated : “And the KINGS of the earth, and the GREAT MEN, and the RICH MEN, and the CHIEF CAPTAINS, and the MIGHTY MEN, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sits on the throne and from THE WRATH OF THE LAMB.”

Mike, not even the “called” fit this category of royal, rich, and might men, let along the Very Elect; “For you see your CALLING, brethren [these are the “called,” not even exclusively the Elect], how that NOT MANY WISE men after the flesh, NOT MANY MIGHTY, NOT MANY NOBLE, are called….” (I Cor. 1:26).

If “not many WISE, NOBLE, AND MIGHTY” are even called, how pray tell, can they be a representation of the ELECT?  Rev. 6:15 is not speaking of the Elect, but of the Church, if not all the inhabitants of the WORLD: “That day is a day of WRATH [Rev. 6:17], a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, a day of the trumpet [Rev. 8:13] and alarm against the fenced cities [Rev. 16:19], and against the high towers, and I will bring distress UPON MEN [Rev. 16:9, 21; 19:18] …” (Zep 1:14-17).  This is NOT God’s wrath upon the ELECT, but upon “men,” mankind—the whole inhabited earth.

You cannot compare those in Rev. 6:15-17 with the Elect Saints of Verse 9.  Those saints under the figurative altar of verse 9, “…were slain FOR THE WORD OF GOD; and for THE TESTIMONY OF WHICH THEY HELD.” Those in Verse 15-17 and ALL those who go through these trumpets and seven last plagues are clearly NOT slain for the Word of God or for the Testimony of Jesus Christ.  They are slain for THEIR SINS AND BLASPHEMIES.

The Elect have repented (Rom. 2:4), and welcome the trials and tribulations, and “…count it all JOY when we fall into diverse temptations [trials]…” (Jas 1:2). Has the world and the church (whom you label “the elect”) repented of their sins when put to God’s wrath?  “…she repented NOT” (Rev. 2:32).”And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented NOT…” (Rev 9:20). “And men were scorched with great heat, and BLASPHEMED the Name of God, which has power over these PLAGUES, and they repented NOT to give glory to Him” (Rev 16:9). “And BLASPHEMED the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented NOT of their deeds” (Rev 16:11).  God is NOT granting any of these repentance.

And just how much spiritual progress do these that you label “Elect” make as they journey through the 7 SEALS, and the 7 TRUMPETS, and the 7 LAST PLAGUES?  Here is your commentary on Rev. 16:21 when all seven SEALS, and TRUMPETS, and PLAGUES have been poured out upon mankind and the Church (which you interpret as ‘the Elect).  You state: “Don’t read too much into this verse knowing what we know now or we’ll become confused.” CONFUSED IN DEED!

This is unscriptural heresy, Mike. Here is you interpretation of what happens when this final “hailstone about the weight of a talent” falls on mankind:  “Likewise, when we are crushed by the stone ‘about the weight of a talent,’ we symbolically put on the king’s crown in that WE ARE GIVEN THE MIND OF CHRIST AND ARE TRULY ‘LIKE HIM.’ (CAPS are mine).

You continue this thought in your next comments by stating:   “So before we conclude chapter 16, we need to reiterate that we are now seeing ourselves at the point in our spiritual walk where WE ARE NOW COMPLETE.  We are being depicted as the NEW CREATIONS, HAVING THE MIND OF CHRIST, Having been BORN OF GOD.” (CAPS are once more, mine).

Mike, I hardly know what to say! Here are YOUR words:  “So before we conclude chapter 16, we need to reiterate that we are now…COMPLETE…the NEWCREATION…HAVING THE MIND OF CHRIST…BORN OF GOD.”

And you state this with reference to the following Scripture: “And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent….”  At this point you state, “So when we are crushed by the stone ‘about the weight of a talent,’ we symbolically put on the king’s crown in that WE ARE GIVEN THE MIND OF CHRIST AND ARE TRULY LIKE HIM.”  Oh Really?  And is that what this verse teaches us?

Let’s read this whole verse:

“And there fell upon men [Greek: ‘anthropos’—’human beings—mankind’] a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and MEN [mankind, not the Elect ]  B- L- A- S- P- H- E- M- E- D  God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceedingly great” (Rev. 16:21).
Does “BLASPHEMING  GOD” sound to you like being “.. complete …a new creation…having the mind of Christ…born of God…being truly like HIM?”
Coming out of Babylon is but the first truly spiritual step in the life of the Elect. This is not his completion of maturity, but rather the beginning of his spiritual walk with God and Jesus Christ. “But GROW in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” (II Pet. 3:18).

Those who have come through the 7 last plagues have not grown one iota! One cannot even begin to grow spiritually until one has come out of Babylon, and those who go through the 7 last plagues do not come out of Babylon; THEY  A- R- E  BABYLON. Does “Blaspheming God” sound like the attitude Peter said that we would have when being tried of God? “Wherein ye greatly REJOICE, thought now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being more precious that of gold that perishes through it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ” (1 Pe 1:6:7).

Nowhere in Revelation do those inflicted with these Seals, Trumpets, and Plagues show any sign of remorse or repentance whatsoever.  Is that the picture that the entire New Testament writers show us regarding how we “GROW in grace and knowledge” as we walk out the will of God in our lives?

The Scriptural truth is that all mankind (including the harlot church) will not repent because of these horrible trumpets and plagues, because God has not granted them repentance, and they do NOT repent, but rather BLASPHEME the name of God.  Are you seriously planning to teach those “little ones” coming out of Babylon that they will yet have to turn against God and not repent, but rather they are predestined to BLASPHEME the very Name of the God that they are now trying to serve?

I could write pages and pages on the difference between the “Elect” who are “NOT appointed to wrath,” and the deceived wicked who ARE appointed to wrath: “What if God, willing to show His WRATH , and to make His power known endured with much longsuffering the VESSELS OF WRATH fitted to destruction: And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the VESSELS OF MERCY, which He has before prepared unto glory” (Rom. 9:22-23).

Do you not know the difference between the “Vessels of WRATH,” and the “Vessels of MERCY.”  How, pray tell, Mike, can they be one and the same?  Life is hard enough for those whom God is calling out of Babylon without burdening them down with the SEVEN LAST PLAGUES assigned to the “Vessels of WRATH.”  Jesus assures His Elect that:”But unto you [the called and chosen elect] I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have NOT this doctrine [of the harlot Jezebel], and which have NOT known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you NONE OTHER BURDEN” (Rev. 2:24).

It is the Church, the Nicolaitanes, that, “…bind HEAVY BURDENS, and grievous to be born” (Matt. 23:4).  The burden that you are now binding on God’s elect is greater than anything the Pharisees ever thought.  Let us not be guilty of this same sin. Give it up!

I fear that you have utterly failed to see what it is that God is showing you by falling flat on your face with that bit of heresy regarding “the elect no longer sinning in the flesh.”  That bit of heresy is only symptomatic of your whole Revelation Commentary.  Your paper on Revelation is no less heretical that your “sinless Elect” heresy.  It is not inspired of God’s Holy Spirit—it is a work of the flesh.
.
Satan has got a hold on you Mike, and I fear for your spiritual well being.  You wrote the paper “Strong Delusion,” and now “out of your own mouth” you are being judged.  I can’t even talk to you anymore. You are a different person. Scriptures that we were in total agreement on months and years ago, now have a totally different meaning to you. We have always agreed that although we have similar trials as do those in the lake of fire, nonetheless, God does not call our trials”the Lake of Fire.”  We are assured as overcomers that we “…shall NOT be hurt of the second death” (Rev. 2:11). The second death IS the lake of fire (Rev. 20:14), and your paper teaches that we, the Elect, ARE the “beast and false prophet” which is thrown into the lake of fire along with Satan.

We both agreed years ago that all mankind must go through similar trials and testing, tribulations and persecutions, but we agreed that we do not go through “the lake of fire,” as Paul does not call the fire we are purged by, “the lake of fire” in I Cor. 3:15.  Neither do we go through the “Wrath of God,” as we are “NOT appointed unto wrath.”  Although many of the same instruments of purging are used by God on both the Elect, and on the Church and world, that is where the similarities end.

Those going through the 7 Last Plagues are not called out of Babylon as we are, they ARE BABYLON. Those going through the 7 Last Plagues are not given repentance as we are, they continually “repent NOT.” Those going through the 7 Last Plagues are totally carnal, whereas we, the elect, are motivated by the Spirit of God. Those going through the 7 Last Plagues have been totally deceived by Satan, whereas it is not possible to deceive the elect.
Those going through the 7 Last Plagues are worse off at the end of the Last Plague than they were from the start, whereas the elect continuously “grow in grace and knowledge.”

Those going through the 7 Last Plagues hate and despise God and His Word, whereas those elect pictured under the altar have been “crucified with Christ,” and have “the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus Christ.”

Those going through the 7 Last Plagues go through them because they didn’t “come out of Babylon,” whereas we who do come out of Babylon are promised specifically that we will NOT “be partakers of her PLAGUES.”

Those going through the 7 Last Plagues are damning and cursing and BLASPHEMING the very Name of God, where we “count it all JOY” to be able to suffer for Christ’s sake and for God’s purpose.

Those going through the 7 Last Plagues will also go through the lake of fire and second death, whereas the elect overcomers are specifically promised that they “will NOT by hurt by the second death.”

You say that those going through the 7 Last Plagues will be “born again and have the mind of Christ and be like Him” after they go through all 7 Plagues, whereas we know from experience that when one starts to “come out of her My people” they have overcome virtually none of their sins. They are just beginning to take their first spiritual baby steps.  But they are immediately promised protection from the 7 Last Plagues, as they begin their walk of overcoming through the Spirit of God and Christ living in them. This is decidedly NOT the picture of those “repenting NOT, BLASPHEMING” masses who will go through the 7 Last Plagues.

How can you NOT see the truth of this subject?  I believe the majority of those who have prayerfully studied my “Lake of Fire” series can see that God has not appointed them to the horrible wrath of the 7 Seals, Trumpets, and Plagues, even though we have not even specifically covered them as yet.  We give all the Scriptures regarding “Judgment beginning at the house of God.”  But we also point out that for those who will judge themselves now, voluntarily,”…should NOT be condemned with the world” (I Cor. 11:31-32).  You know all of these Scriptures, I don’t need to quote them to you, but somehow it appears that you have forgotten these basics as you got so entangled with your Revelation Project.

Mike, I can’t have you teach this on our site or in our Conferences. I’m afraid that I have to ask you to NOT teach this unscriptural heresy to those from bible-truths. com that have been invited to this Michigan Conference.

You know, it was just in the last couple of months that I told you how I have wished and prayed that nothing would ever come between us. I feel rather inadequate to carry on this work alone.  But I trust God for all my needs. This work will go on.  Nonetheless, this is one of the saddest days of my life!!

Ray

Mike writes:

Ray,

I am going to give you a couple of examples of how the Old Testament shows us how to understand the sayings of the prophecy of this book:

Mal 3:1  Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:2  But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he [ is] like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:

Did the Jews delight in Christ when He came? Did Christ refine anyone while in His flesh here on earth? Yes, indeed it is confusing and hard to be understood. But will you call Malachi a heretic also?

Mal 3:3  And he shall sit [ as] a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

Did Christ purify the Sons of Levi? Of course He did not. They killed Him. Is Malachi therefore a heretic?

Ray, once again you are trying to make me say what I am not saying. You are saying that I am teaching that the elect must go through the seven last plagues in the lake of fire. This is the equivalent of saying that Malachi taught that Christ had to purify the sons of Levi before He could qualify as our Messiah. In so doing you are denying that we are to keep the sayings of the prophecy of this book. Now you are even denying that the Sixth seal has anything to do with God’s elect:

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Ray, if you cannot see that these symbols are in us all, the called and the uncalled, the elect and the unelect, the faithful and the unfaithful, and that these are words which will never pass away and will be applicable to every generation, then far be it from me to try to force the fact that we, God’s elect are to keep all of the sayings of the prophecy of this book, down anyone’s throat. I have always taught that all truth comes only by divine revelation directly from God. All God’s elect do is to write words which affirm what is already been written.

Malachi says that Christ  will  “come near to you in judgment”:

Mal 3:4  Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
Mal 3:5  And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in [his] wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger [from his right], and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

But when Christ did come here is what He said:

Joh 8:15  Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

Is Malachi a heretic?

Now here is another scripture which was fulfilled in Peter’s day which you would apparently say is also “not just confusing but heresy:”

Act 2:14  But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Act 2:15  For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is [ but] the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16  But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18  And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19  And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21  And it shall come to pass, [ that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Do you really believe, Ray, that this is a separate “darkening of the sun” from the one mentioned in the very seal you refer to in Revelation 6? Here are your words concerning my commentary:

“In your Revelation Commentary (Rev. 6:9-11), you state that “their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed AS THEY were should be fulfilled” has reference to those in verse 15 of whom it is stated: “And the KINGS of the earth, and the GREAT MEN, and the RICH MEN, and the CHIEF CAPTAINS , and the MIGHTY MEN, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sits on the throne and from THE WRATH OF THE LAMB” Mike, not even the “called” fit this category of royal, rich, and might men, let along the Very Elect; “For you see your CALLING, brethren [these are the “called,” not even exclusively the Elect], how that NOT MANY WISE men after the flesh, NOT MANY MIGHTY, NOT MANY NOBLE, are called….” (I Cor. 1:26).  If “not many WISE, NOBLE, AND MIGHTY” are even called, how pray tell, can they be a representation of the ELECT?  Rev. 6:15 is not speaking of the Elect, but of the Church, if not all the inhabitants of the WORLD: “

Ray, were the following words anything the natural man would ever see?

Act 2:19 I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that >great and notable day of the Lord come

No, they are spiritual words which were endured and experienced by “Peter and the eleven.” Neither Joel nor Malachi were heretics. The eleven had seen the sun darkened and the moon turned into blood. They had seen “fire in the earth beneath; blood fire and vapour of smoke.” But you are looking for literal ‘KINGS of the earth, and the GREAT MEN, and the RICH MEN, and the CHIEF CAPTAINS , and the MIGHTY MEN, before you will concede that we, God’s elect, are to “keep the sayingsof the prophecy of this book.” And you accused me in our last phone conversation of comparing physical things with physical “throughout the commentary.” Also you could not understand how God’s elect were ever to be considered as once being the beast and the false prophet.

These are words which ‘Are, Were And Will Be.’ They are not eschatalogical [endtime events] words.  Let me be sure to include for your sake that I mean that they are not eschatalogical as the world understands that word.  We both know that there is a consummation to the sayings of the prophecy of this book. But they are in spiritual ‘Is, Was And Will Be’ order so as to have an application to all men of every age since Christ and right on through the lake of fire. They are for all men, Ray. If you do not see how these words in Revelation six apply to God’s elect, why do you apply Rev 13, the beast to God’s elect? Why do you have a series called ‘the lake of fire’ for God’s elect. Is it just to tell them that they don’t have to worry about it because it does not apply to them?

Exactly which part of this book are we to keep, Ray? Are we to keep only the souls under the altar? Are we to only keep the hundred and forty and four thousand? Are we to only apply all the positive parts of the sayings of the prophecy of this book to ourselves?

You say:

“I fear that you have utterly failed to see what it is that God is showing you by falling flat on your face with that bit of heresy regarding “the elect no longer sinning in the flesh.”  That bit of heresy is only symptomatic of your whole Revelation Commentary.  Your paper on Revelation is no less heretical that your “sinless Elect” heresy. It is not inspired of God’s Holy Spirit—it is a work of the flesh. Satan has got a hold on you Mike, and I fear for your spiritual well being.  You wrote the paper “Strong Delusion,” and now “out of your own mouth” you are being judged.  I can’t even talk to you anymore. You are a different person. Scriptures that we were in total agreement on months and years ago, now have a totally different meaning to you. We have always agreed that although we have similar trials as do those in the lake of fire, nonetheless, God does not call our trials “the Lake of Fire.”  We are assured as overcomers that we “…shall NOT be hurt of the second death” (Rev. 2:11). The second death IS the lake of fire (Rev. 20:14), and your paper teaches that we, the Elect, ARE the “beast and false prophet” which is thrown into the lake of fire along with Satan.”

We still agree that God’s elect do not go through the lake of fire. Quote me where I say otherwise. It is obvious that Satan is indeed having steak for dinner right now.  You have not quoted me as anywhere teaching that God’s elect are cast into the lake of fire and God’select must go through the seven last plagues. Why is that, Ray? It is because I do not do so. Yes, I did “fall flat on my face.” And I admitted it and repented. I hope and pray that you are able to do the same, because we are at a point of having to make public what is happening  just as we were before.

Many people are going to be confused and disillusioned by you and me calling each other heretics. Consider and pray about this, Ray. Consider the Old Testament prophecies and how you are doing to me exactly what the Judaizers of Paul’s day did to him. Nowhere in God’s word will you find a scripture which tells you straightforwardly that the “everlasting covenant” of circumcision has come to an end in its outward sense.

Now here is what I am really teaching in Marshall and in the commentary. You begin this letter by saying that you went to my page and read my announcement:

“After visiting your site regarding the upcoming Conference in Michigan, I see that you are planning to teach that the Elect will all have to go through the Seven Last Plagues.'”

That is simply an intellectually dishonest statement, Ray. Here is the announcement as it was originally written and has been up now for several months and which you say you read:

“Our fourth talk will be by Mike. He has entitled it The Lake Of Fire and The Seven Last Plagues In The Life of All of God’s Elect. Yes, it is true, ” He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death.”

Yes, it is true, “We are not appointed to wrath.” And yet we are told that God’s elect are to “keep the sayings of the prophecy of this book.” Those “sayings” include a whole lot of things that are generally believed to be applicable only to those who fail to become overcomers. But before this weekend is out you will see that fire and plagues have a place in the lives of all of God’s elect. Then you will have a much deeper understanding of the meaning of this verse:

Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

So what is it that I am really teaching?

Yes, it is true, ” He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death.” Yes, it is true, “We are not appointed to wrath.” And yet we are told that God’s elect are to “keep the sayings of the prophecy of this book.”

And yet you accuse me repeatedly of saying the exact opposite? Why are you doing this, Ray? It is because you cannot see how God’s elect have any part in the sayings of the prophecy of this book.”

This is the announcement I sent to you many months ago. You edited it and posted what is on your site. If you so disagreed with this premise, why did you not say so at the time? I have been teaching this premise at all of our conferences. Why the change at this time? Why are you now insisting that because I, like Peter and the eleven, can see that even though Christ did not refine and purify Levi, yet this prophecy in Malachi has an Is, Was and Will Be application to Christ’s first coming? And I, like Peter and the eleven, can see that even though Joel two can be seen as Christ’s second coming:

Joe 2:2  A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

Yet it can also be used to refer to His first:

Act 2:16  But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Joe 2:28  And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe 2:29  And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joe 2:30  And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

Those who go beyond the six doctrines of Hebrew 6:1-2 have no trouble applying God’s Word to His entire creation in its time and in its place. It is only those who cannot compare spiritual with spiritual who are confused and say that God’s Word is contradicting itself.

It is not a contradiction of God’s word “which will never pass away,” to see how the blaspheming of the unrepentant has already been accomplished in the lives of the repentant. That is what I teach because that is what God’s word teaches.

It is the Pharisee who could not see himself as ever being in the place of the publican. And it is the Pharisees of today who cannot see any application of the seals, trumpets and plagues to themselves.

This is indeed a sad day, Ray. I pray that God will be merciful to us both.

Mike

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